Jeremy Wagstaff writes: My former colleague Joyce, still in her native Taiwan. Is the poster child of how to handle a pandemic still doing well, or have things, as she feared, slipped? Joyce is one of the several people who are sheltering in places that aren't where they supposed or necessarily want to be. Running to Taiwan was her idea when Hong Kong was on the verge of being overrun with the virus. When I last spoke to her she was worried, not about the government, but about her fellow Taiwanese. Were they being a bit too relaxed about the whole thing?
Jeremy Wagstaff writes: My former colleague Joyce, still in her native Taiwan. Is the poster child of how to handle a pandemic still doing well, or have things, as she feared, slipped? Joyce is one of the several people who are sheltering in places that aren't where they supposed or necessarily want to be. Running to Taiwan was her idea when Hong Kong was on the verge of being overrun with the virus. When I last spoke to her she was worried, not about the government, but about her fellow Taiwanese. Were they being a bit too relaxed about the whole thing?
Jeremy: 0:00
Hi. My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. You're listening to Living in a Pandemic. It's April the 30th. 2020. There are 3.13 million confirmed cases of code 19 429 of them in Taiwan. Around the world, 227,235 people have died. Hey, how are you?
Joyce: 0:22
Good, thanks. How are you?
Jeremy: 0:24
uh, not so bad. Thanks. Yes. I last spoke to Joyce a month ago in her native Taiwan. Joyce is one of the several people who are sheltering in places that aren't where they're supposed to be or necessarily want to be. She's a former Reuters colleague now splitting her time between France and Hong Kong running to Taiwan was her idea when Hong Kong was on the verge of being overrun with the virus. When I last spoke to her, she was worried not about the government, but about her fellow Taiwanese. Were they being a bit too relaxed about the whole thing? She wondered. And how about you?
Joyce: 0:58
Oh, we're good. Thank you. And here in Taiwan, it's Ah, it's just somewhat my my worry. Last time we talked it waas it proved to be totally unnecessary because we just have the four days off zero new case, and I think we haven't had a local case for over two weeks. By now, it's It's pretty much touch wood controlled here in Taiwan, I think. Wow. Yeah, I was caught making because I think last time we talked, we I was a bit worried about there was a long weekend and people we're now too, like nine markets and and all that. And there was no case from that long weekend. And then afterwards they waas there was a navy ship. I don't know if you if you if you see that there's a navy ship coming back from and I cannot remember where Palau or somewhere for a mission and a couple off Navy officers they were infected, and then it proves like they were 20 cases, I think. And that was quite scary because those the the officers, they were let out of the boat, the ship, and then three words were detected. And then they call back all that money 700 of them. But they have been out for a few days, so they were all back. Put them in quarantine and then tested them. And then every day you have, like, you know, 10 20 cases. And then it proved to be like it was okay. They were now on the street with, like, three days. They went to karaoke, E day, which restaurants? And they went to the game and they turn out to be okay. And it was quite bizarre, I think.
Jeremy: 2:51
Do you think that the government is just done a good job of limiting the spread or why?
Joyce: 2:57
Why is that? Yeah, I myself, I was a little bit puzzled by that after that long weekend and then after the navy ship and then But that was the fact s old days thought some theories have come out. It's because since January, everyone is vigorous three washing the hands and spraying yourself with the sanitizer. Whether the mosque So it seems, um because of that you cut down because of the personal hygiene that literally you don't get it because those offices they go out, they went out. I think they went to an end. The government very quickly identified. They traced the footsteps and then they identify like maybe, you know, dozens of places if you've been to the gym, If you've been to this restaurant, if you here and there, watch out and then monitor yourselves. And if you've been in contact with them, if you are family or your girlfriend's of them, please do, like, look warranting automatically. So I think those officers they knew very well when they when they were there, out of the ship. They knew when they went out and they need to wear a mosque. And then they knew. They need to ask their family to pick them up from the ship instead of taking the public transport. So all that it turns out to be, you know, there's no way they can spread it. The virus is cut interesting, and that was a bit suspicious, But they're hell. Do you suspect this right? If you say the government is covering it up. But what would you do that just start west, that Taiwan has no reason to do it? You don't need to hide it. And secondly, if you hide it, if someone is infected in a society like this, there's no way it will not. It will not leak, right? So your family is not going to tell or your local doctor. It's not going to tell or your neighbors sound nothing to tell. So if you think if you think about so that is no way days of reason, the number is not
Jeremy: 5:16
true. Alright, right.
Joyce: 5:18
And then and then you think about it. The only reason you can think of this because everyone is doing this personal hygiene so seriously. So some doctors came out to say because right now I think beginning of the year should be the peak of the influence US season. But because people don't want to go to the hospitals anymore, they don't think they feel nervous about it. So they are very careful about everything. So even if the case, the case off the flu, it dropped significantly. So you did not only you not only country contender coronavirus. You also contend the flu virus. So a so quite a few stories about doctors They tried to see why, and then the only reason they can see it's because of this and then because you and then there's another thing called what? The kids, You must know the kids they would have like a stomach bug. Cole enterovirus or something. So it will be four kids under, you know, young kids. And this is the peak season usually, but that has come down so much as well. So even the kids, they touch everything right? They, you know, stomach thing is the most usual thing, but they don't get it. So this doctor, how do you call it that the child doctor, There's a war for that. You know, The doctors Day specializes in kits. One doctor came out to say peace. He's experiences that he hasn't seen even one child with that stomach book in a month on, and he analyzed all the numbers he has from the past. And then he said the only thing he can sing Couples said before it was so difficult to to tell the second a garden kids or that very young kits. In primary school, I wash your hands and don't put your hands in your mouth. Don't don't suck your fingers before it was difficult. And then now this time the teachers are really serious about it, and even very young child in their three school. They tried to wear the mosque, but it's difficult, but they really know how to wash your hands. So that is true. I see kids on the street and then the parents. Was that so nervous that no, don't touch that. Don't touch that. Okay, not sanitize your hands. So I think that helps a lot because everyone is paying attention to that. So that's the most amazing thing I found in the last few weeks. I was expecting schools, Will, They were shot the schools because I think there was one high school student came back from Europe, Greece or somewhere for holiday that a long holiday. And he was infected. So the whole school closed. Now that was my nephew school. My sister was really nervous, so the school closed down for two weeks. They sanitized the school and then they tricked everyone into the school. And then two weeks later, OK, back to school. So that was it that no school as all school schools will be the hot spot for that. So no, they close the school and this only one school closed down. And then two weeks later they reopen it. And now, by four days, without any cocoa case, without any case, more than two weeks without local case. So tomorrow is the made a long holiday. So the government would you say OK, just relax. Just be careful where the mosque wash your hands. Don't touch here and there, and that's a relax. So that's it.
Jeremy: 9:07
So there's no lock down. It'll for tomorrow.
Joyce: 9:10
No, no, not at all about the government that develop an app. You know, Taiwan is at country everything. In Singapore, it's probably the same. You have an app for everything. So they I think over the last week they developed this thing so you can just click on the map and see Okay, I want to go to say this whatever national park, and that it would tell you the condition off that place off. The the flow, the flow off, the traffic, the flow off the people. So if it's read, or if it's yellow, it's growing. So if it's red and I didn't really see that because I'm not going out, So if it's red that makes please reconsider, go somewhere else so you you could check. So I think some cities they are popular like touristy areas, and they would have maybe 10 hot spots in the city And those those mayors that quite upset about the government saying that Why did you put down people will not come here to, you know, to spend a family that was very quick. Money that the government has come out to explain say, it's not. It's not a dangerous map. It's just a matter to, you know, we want to distribute people to different areas. So no, there's not a lot now. There's no restrictions and no nothing. That's really quick. Bazaar.
Jeremy: 10:33
You've been posting pictures of you and Phil wandering around and kind of lying on the grass and generally, apparently doing nothing. But it still seems that rant that many people around. Is that the case?
Joyce: 10:45
No, we go because we go. That's a week, day it, the weekends. We don't go on over the weekends, you saw those of basketball courts. They were full of people and people cycling. So what? We went. It would usually young weekday in the afternoon because people still go to work. You don't work from home here, so that's what it's always empty. And on weekends it's It's pretty crowded, but But yesterday we went into town. We went to him. We went to meet some people at the department store. It was quite empty. We think people literally cut down, going out and then at the department store before we went in there. Check out temperature first, and then the spray our hands and then, you know, sanitize your hands. And then we went into the department store and before we went into the cafe inside a bookstore at the door, they take our temperature again, and then the spray our hands again, and then we. After that we left. We left the place who went into another shopping more to another copy place. And then again we were. We were tested, the temperature was tested twice, and then the second coffee shop didn't have forces to sanitize your hands. But it is a bottle off spray, just any entrance. So it's It's just I I do think it's because of this vigorous e checking your personal hygiene that cuts down the spray,
Jeremy: 12:14
right? That's interesting, isn't it? It's a Ziff. The government is has done a good job of making reminding people that this is necessary, Andi, that there is this high degree of confidence in the government and therefore people do it and they're calling for their kids to do it. And there's a kind of social, ah recognition that it's important because they can see the benefits of it.
Joyce: 12:39
Yes, yes, there is that you heard about this at the Health Minister, like his the national hero. Now in the way he delivers whatever policies he wants to carry ISS. OK, I'm not going to force you because every time I force you to do it, that or I said that if I say if you don't do it, I'm going to signifying or something and it was a dead. I think it is pretty touching from my beat because I haven't lived in Taiwan for so long and looking at all these and I really feel quite interesting to see a society like this, he said. Like if I say this, that makes I take a little bit off your your freedom away from you and then you. If you don't do it automatically next time and announce a little bit more and then I take a little bit more off your personal liberty from you and then more and more I'm just taking away your liberty and freedom, and that's not what a society we want. So we want you to to just respect your yourself and help each other so I don't have to take away your freedom. So saying these kind of things, it does work. I don't know if it works. It were working. I was, I was talking about This was Phil and then he said, Don't know in the UK maybe. But then the UK is it the health minister telling people This is what I you know? I tell you this. Just just follow this or something, have built it that would suspect fight it because people would not take that. You just don't just tell me just because I tell you so follow the instruction. So in Taiwan is that totally opposite way? It's not because the government tells you so is the government advice you so? And then I saw a lot of people would kind of like be rebellion, but it turned out to be No. People actually happily follows the instructions, and that's quite nice. To see you like this is this is a democracy, but in a way it's almost like brainwashing you every day. Do this. Do this, Do this at the end. You just do it automatically.
Jeremy: 14:49
Is there a sort of social shaming involved of people who aren't complying, get snitched on by their neighbors and stuff?
Joyce: 14:56
Not not so much because, uh, biggest literally you go out. Most people were mask and no. So when you go Teoh, when When the government said we need to have the social distancing. So all this convenience stores and supermarkets that put lies on the floor So you know when you lie up so you just keep distance. So not really Personally, I think that there's no need to do this up the personal shaming here because because, you know, Taiwan being Taiwan has been ignored, like four forever. And now this one thing. A lot of countries talk about Taiwan, so that's one thing. People here feel the national pride. So the only way to be saying or to be heard or to be respected more by outside but by the world, which usually ignores Taiwan, is to do even better. So I think it's this kind of mentality makes everything okay. We have to, you know, it's good for ourselves But at the same time, we have do even better, so people will know we all quit. We're not China were different. So this kind of push is quite strong here. So you do it automatically. You don't need to give people any kind of like, Ah, you know, we have to be. We have to stand together, be strong. There's no need to say that because automatically you have this kind of pried off. Taiwan is finally being saying by the world, and that I think in other countries, probably is. You don't have that right. You don't have china next to you. You don't have 2000 missiles pointing at you, so you don't have that kind off in security or you feel along with deserted by publisher or the U. N. Finally, you know, without them you're doing good and then you're so proud of yourself and then you want to do better. And I think that that is very, very strong from what I've been saying here in Taiwan,
Jeremy: 17:06
just so that people don't think that you're kind of government spokesperson on. I know you have a critical a few of things as well. Taiwan is a democracy. There's an opposition party. There must be people who are critical of the government away. They're doing things or feeling they're going too far enough. Is there a sense of that? All we do kind of really feel like it's almost a war footing, and it would be almost disloyal, unpatriotic to be to be making anti government comments at this point.
Joyce: 17:35
No, no, no, not at all. You have. We have opposition party, which has the KMT, which was a ruling party for 15 years. So they are pretty critical off the government, like, for example, like whether to donate mosques to other countries or to to restrict people's to What did they criticize? I mean a lot of it. It's right when the government that we want to ban exports to everywhere the opposition came out to say How conduce that you know China, they need mosques, and then why do you not export? So when Taiwan has enough map mosques, I want that we want to donate to other countries to the medical workers, the opposition they came out to say No, it's not even we have one every day for the whole country, so you don't. Why do eat all night? But this kind of criticism, in a way backfired because again, based on this, I know I sound like a government spokesman. Basement.
Jeremy: 18:39
They're paying you for this?
Joyce: 18:41
Yeah, I hope so. But I really think like this kind of the United Front is very strong. So it's hard to say when the position came out was that they could criticize. So they have. The standpoint is always criticized, so I would say it's very much. Once I did this kind of opinion, No one sided. It's tight. The criticism is just not strong enough to fight this general stands off. We need to do it together. And then how the government push the people to have this sense of unity. I really don't know. That's why I'm always amazed. Like things I came back. They do it in a way you don't feel like you are. You know, I live in China for five years at Living India, and it's difficult to carry out this kind of in India. People are very proud of the country in China as well, but different kind of pride and in China, if don't carry out something. They push it, push it. You know the government is doing it here. I didn't feel it by that. So I feel like people just chanting We want to do it and that is bizarre And even I find a good But I find it well. It's that people really want do it. So the only thing I can sing couples because Taiwan is being ignored the solo. So this is the only time people saying Okay, we can't be seen.
Jeremy: 20:09
So is there a sense that the kind of the crisis is over? It's now kind of almost a return to normal or gradual return to normal?
Joyce: 20:18
I I have that sense off its gradually returned to normal, but I don't think the government is relaxing anything. So they say everything like the social distancing thing or whatever it's doing place and all the, you know, flights and whatever is still the same. You know, people in the coming. If you go out, you come back, you have to do two weeks quarantine. It's still the same. I think they're hoping June, I think maybe they will see whether they can relax the restrictions because right now I think quite a few, like nightclubs are still closed. A few things are close, right? Rest. The restaurants are open. But then you When you go Teoh a public place like a library or museum. You have to leave your contact in case if they said, Oh, break. They're so they contact you. So this all you go to a zoo, you have to put down your details, every single one. So all these are still in place. And because their tipping four days without a case. So some people are asking the government that you know we don't need to do this anymore. We can just go back to normal. But the government say no. We still need. So right now you still to leave your contact? When you go to a public Goto library, go to a museum.
Jeremy: 21:34
The's a pretty mild compared to what is happening elsewhere, right? I mean, more than anywhere on a tight time. One doesn't sound as if it's sort of beaten the dragon as it were,
Joyce: 21:45
did this? Yeah. This is pretty mild. Yeah, And that's probably the only thing. It's, um it's compulsory before you go, Teoh The other day, I went to the post office and you have to wear mosque if you want to go in and then they make you sanitize your hands. And if you don't have one, they put someone at the door and say No, you another inning until go go and buy some. And when I was in the line, I actually saw two young men they didn't have a mosque. And then this lady of the door saying right now you're not going in. So that the pharmacy state do you have for your national insurance card? Yes, Okay, going by going by some s o, they went by some mosque and then came back with the mosque and come into the post office so that these kind of things, they do it quite seriously.
Jeremy: 22:33
What is the kind of impact on your family? I mean, I'm talking about your kind of siblings and head on. This is you kind of get the sense that it's been pretty light or do feel that they're kind of emerging from sort of a long winter.
Joyce: 22:48
It's pretty light. Like I said before, they just cut. Now the socializing, they don't go out to have dinners with friends and a beauty. If they do things, they do it on their own more. They go all doors, they go little indoors. So quite a lot of my friends stay. If they go out, if they meet, they will go to a park. And before it would be, that's go to shoot a cafe or that's go to a restaurant and sit there for three hours. But that has that. I think everyone is cutting down. So my family I don't see does having much impact of them. And because money brother, my sister, they both to strike toe work. So there's no public ah transport worry so that I don't know, I only being on public transport once and I didn't feel nervous, and I don't feel people around me are nervous. But everyone is wearing a mosque because you can only take the public transport with the mosque and then again, they in Taipei, they take everyone's temperature before you enter the MTR. It's difficult to computer. I will with other countries, like a mission last time. I really think this is almost like a la la land and you don't know what's happening outside did and now people are because all that we have that aeration mask you have night every two weeks and they're manufactured by different factories. So they have different, a slightly different style and color. I It's think it's light. Thing is purple wherever, so you know people are complaining about. I like pink mosques, but those order their blue. I really want pink ones. Think this is really crazy
Jeremy: 24:39
for people. They got that luxury to be fussing at this point because they, yeah, anxiety levels as you believe, fallen.
Joyce: 24:47
It's just ridiculous. And because if you don't like I only did, I only ordered twice since that came back, I said, This system, maybe six time you can order. So now there are so many mosques, but in piling up right in the government are talking about you know this. Do they attract criticism? So, you know, Taiwan produces quite a lot of mosques every day. The next question I would have, he said. There are a lot and used what could you just so time I'm still bans export and plow. One doesn't want to sell to people because it's you know they don't want to Taiwan. There's going to be seeing, like making money off of this, right? So Taiwan only donates. But I look at it. I think there are more to donate, but then that that becomes a political issue because you want to donate more. That will become the opposition's main point to attack the government. And that will also become China's point to attack Taiwan because China is doing this as well, right? So Taiwan has to be very, very careful to not to no way not to anger China too much and that at the same time not to upset the opposition party at home. So they have to sing very carefully, even though I would think the government is time to get extra must to any country which likes it wants to have it. But Taiwan cannot. In some countries they will not step Taiwan's moss. I think one European country, I cannot remember where northern Europe, one country literally came out to say no, we do not want to accept your donation, and that's purely because of China.
Jeremy: 26:29
So they know that China will give them a hard time that the diplomatic recognition is an issue, etcetera, etcetera.
Joyce: 26:35
Yes so it becomes kind of like I found at the very our situation. You have so many moss. It's not like you don't want to give it to other countries, but you literally cannot. Some people will not accept it. China will get that you are position will get upset. So now have you heard of our digital minister, Audrey Time this transgender minister, that she's she's She's very cool. So we have this mosque. We have this app you can just order from the government and people say, You know, I don't want to have enough mass. I want to donate to to medical workers overseas. Why can I do it? Why the government is not doing. But the government has the government's concerns. The politicans concerts. So this old re time just a just a the the app So you can now donate your personal rations. So I have nine. I don't want them. So there is. There is a bottom day I can click, say, don't it? So I can so that those mosque we should be Mike will go to a separate account, and that will be the donation from the people, but not from the government right, So So the government will take charge of it and then donate to whichever countries they say. We want mosques. They were doing so when this policy came out. That was 34 days ago and literally within one day, 24 hours. They are one million muss in that count. By doing that, the government can cut out this opposition, saying that where you give the mosque to other people, we don't even have one a day. Everyone, so they can say, Well, it's from the people. It's not the government. So So I think that's the way Taiwan is going to donate more mosques. I guess it's from the people to do it, to donate it automatically.
Jeremy: 28:28
Thank you, Thomas. You call it.
Joyce: 28:30
Yes, yes. And then it's It's a is there, even even though you want to get give away your mosque, people not necessarily want it. So I saw some people talking about economy and don't now you can only hope, like if a country which has more or less I don't think any countries as, say, cleaning, so to say, as Taiwan at the moment. But gradually, if some countries say, for example, in New Zealand doing very well and maybe relax sings with New Zealand and gradually you you communicate with we open up the transport, whatever with those countries, you feel your it's safe. And then maybe you only take this very strict control at the airport. And once you enter the country that you know, things are normal against back in Hong Kong, they are there no new cases for four days as well. So gradually you will have countries or cities with no cases and that you were saying Okay, we can come into it with them. Probably
Jeremy: 29:36
right, right. Yeah, there's gonna be this kind of global elite of places that are sort of free to operate but that anyone toe collaborate with other
Joyce: 29:46
Yeah, and a place that Taiwan or New Zealand. I think that the upside is that because we have, we do have our own agriculture and stuff like that. We can be self sufficient for quite some time. You don't have to worry about food or anything, but there any end of the day, you have to think about your exports because it's very, very much export based the economy. So yes, So I think Taiwan is very worried about the economy as well, and now now they are trying to just boost the local consumption, local spending and trying t hope. They call me locally first weight or other countries to get better, but you're not going to escape. It's no way you can escape. You can be fussy about your pink mosque on whatsoever. You're just part of it. Whether you are accepted by the look by the international organizations or now you cannot be young role.
Jeremy: 30:42
That's Joyce, all joking aside about her being a spokesman for the Taiwanese government, it's quite astounding what Taiwan has done and will likely get a ringside seat of one of the first countries to resume or, for many, continue normal life when we talk to her again in a few weeks. Or are we just going to see over optimism again and the need for more lockdowns? If you have questions for Joyce or any of the interview easel for me, your comments you can reach me at Pandemic at left stick dot com. Don't forget to give the podcaster rating good or all bad. Andi. Share it with anyone else who might be interested you've been listening to life in a pandemic produced by myself. Jeremy Wagstaff on Saudi Selous. Oh, no. If you're not already doing so, please subscribe. So you can catch future, oppose those and find old ones on. If you like it enough, make your feelings known on iTunes or whatever service you're listening to This on. If you'd like to comment or participate, please drop us a line at endemic at cleft stick dot com My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. Goodbye for now. And stay well wherever you are.