Jeremy Wagstaff writes: The latest in my series on lives disrupted by the coronavirus. We return to Dinny in Tana Toraja, the remote highland home her husband's Toraja people. Dinny is grappling with economic crisis as her company of weavers implodes under collapsing tourism, and with the more personal questions about relationships: Is Zoom just for chat, or should we be talking about something deeper? She finds surprises galore among friends she thought she knew.
Dinny's company and campaign:
Website: Toraja Melo
Instagra: @torajamelo
Facebook torajamelo
Hashtag: #WITTOCorona (Weaving In The Time Of Corona)
Jeremy Wagstaff writes: The latest in my series on lives disrupted by the coronavirus. We return to Dinny in Tana Toraja, the remote highland home her husband's Toraja people. Dinny is grappling with economic crisis as her company of weavers implodes under collapsing tourism, and with the more personal questions about relationships: Is Zoom just for chat, or should we be talking about something deeper? She finds surprises galore among friends she thought she knew.
Dinny's company and campaign:
Website: Toraja Melo
Instagra: @torajamelo
Facebook torajamelo
Hashtag: #WITTOCorona (Weaving In The Time Of Corona)
Jeremy Wagstaff: 0:00
Hi. My name i s Jeremy Wagstaff. You're listening to Living in a Pandemic. Just a word before we get started. In the last 24 hours, one of my friends who has been kind enough to share her experiences of locked down on this podcast found herself in the maelstrom of media attention. As a former journalist, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. She's asked me to take down the podcast in which I interviewed her. And of course I've complied. This podcast is all about how our lives physical, mental, emotional, are being affected by this pandemic. I'm grateful to her on all my other friends who have let me ask them about their lives. And I absolutely respect her request for some privacy. To me, the biggest lesson I drawn from these interviews is that we don't really know what people are going through. And so we shouldn't be quick to judge. This pandemic isn't gonna be over tomorrow, and neither will this podcast. Thanks to the people who have agreed to talk, my respect and gratitude to them. It's April 28th 2020. There are 2.98 million confirmed cases of Covid-19, 9096 of them in Indonesia. Around the world, 214,146 people have died.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 1:23
Hi, Dinny.
Dinny Jusuf: 1:24
Hi, hi, hi, hi. Wait, wait, wait ..
Jeremy Wagstaff: 1:26
Jeremy Wagstaff: 1:26
We last spoke to Dinny a month ago in her highland home on Indonesia's island off Sulawesi. You'd be hard pressed to find a home further from the capital of Jakarta. Although it's Indonesia. So of course, there are still thousands of islands remoter than hers. She was balancing the business and spiritual worlds and pondering how the pandemic was already changing the social habits of her fellow Indonesians. I wanted to find out how she was coping and which part of her was winning out the world traveled Cosmopolitan or the woman who had chosen to live among her husband's ethnic clan. The Torajans. I can hear you fine. How are you?
Dinny Jusuf: 2:07
Good. Hello, Jeremy..
Jeremy Wagstaff: 2:11
Excellent. So thanks very much for another session as it were.
Dinny Jusuf: 2:16
Yeah, I was trying to listen to the other podcasts. I only managed to listen to the one in Australia. The pepper farmer. Oh, my God, so sad. And the one in Kunming. So I will listen one by one.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 2:32
Yeah, will be interested in your thought?
Dinny Jusuf: 2:34
Yeah. So interesting.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 2:36
How has life been for you since we last spoke?
Dinny Jusuf: 2:39
Yeah. This this conversation makes me, like, kind of make a short journal. Because it is an interesting time and to update you, about .. yeah, more than a week ago. You know how we have all this Whatapp group. So many Whatapp groups. And one of the whatsapp group I have is with the rich ladies of Jakarta. We are kind of friends, close, but not that close, you know, we're just happy-happy, we travel together, we eat together, we do social things. I mean, er, charity here in there like that .. and some of them are quite like we've been friends for more than 20 years or even 30 years. But it's always happy- happy .. But about more than a week ago, I sort of felt low. I felt like so sad. And I was thinking, Oh, my God. You know, I thought I was a strong woman, like, you know, doing things and this and that. But then I want to process it. I want to admit I was sad, like I was sad, and I feel guilty also because in a way I don't have any reason to be sad because we have food, we have, we live in a nice house, you know, like our Children are OK, they're in does, they can make money, they have good kids, they are in Australia , they are safe. I just felt so low and then I have this naughty urge. So I shared that with my happy and rich friends in Jakarta, and .. it's very interesting .. the respond .. Eight of them then start telling me to cheer up, everything is going to be OK. And you know, the standard happy-happy thing. But two (of them), one by one called me. And we had, like, our first very deep personal conversation in our 20 or 30 years of friendship. You know, like they also admitted that they feel low. They're scared. They're sad, and it become like very beautiful deep meaning conversation. I thought, huh, this is interesting and we get to know each other better compared to all these years, that we ha-ha-hi-hi, in restaurants in Jakarta, you know? So that's one, that's one of the highlights since we last talked and I sort off like make a point also to check on my other friends. Like when I was worried about because she lives alone, she is a divorce, she lives in a small apartment in South Jakarta. And I check on her a few days ago and I was worried and she is a cancer survivor, breast cancer survivor. And when I ask her, "Are you okay? Yeah, I'm used to being alone. I love being alone. And this is just great for me, she said. I'm I'm happy! I can still work through zoom. I'm busy. I'm writing, reading, and having meeting. So in a way I guess it's different for every people?
Jeremy Wagstaff: 5:43
That's really Interesting. The conversations you had with your rich friends from Jakarta, the two personal conversations, did you get a sense that they were feeling something similar to what you were feeling as a result of this pandemic?
Dinny Jusuf: 5:59
Yeah, it's oh, like one of them, I didn't expect her to be like spiritual? And she was saying, "You know, Dinny, the earth is sad, and mother earth is sad, so that's one thing she said. And you are you living in the village. You are close to nature. So you are feeling and just absorbing that, you know, while we in the city, maybe we don't really feel like that, you know? So consider yourself lucky that you can, like, feel what the Earth is feeling. Wow, this is from a lady who, like goes to Gucci and Prada every six months, also, in Europe ..
Jeremy Wagstaff: 6:42
That is interesting. Do you think that this because of the pandemic, that becoming more in touch with those kind of things or do you think that was always there? And it just has, this crisis has empowered or emboldened people to speak out and admit that they aren't mentally in a strong place?
Dinny Jusuf: 7:01
I think it's always there because I know, they are, the two of them are like strong women, but it's like the opening up, the sharing outlet, so it's always there. But I didn't realize, that or we didn't realize that we are like that. You know, because we always talked superficially, we have fun superficially ..
Jeremy Wagstaff: 7:23
And how your own feelings, you're feeling the isolation is that what affecting you? Do you think?
Dinny Jusuf: 7:31
I don't know, I don't know, because again, that's why I feel guilty, because this is where I want to be. I've been wanting. I've been wanting to take sabbaticals leave which nobody believes. And then I want to stay in this house because we built this house like, 11 years ago, because I wanted to retire. I want to be here. I want to read and write. And now this is where I am. You know, like because since we finished the house, then somehow I was building Toraja Melo and I have to go back to Jakarta to do the marketing. But now, I'm here. So isolation. Not really, ya? So I don't know. I think I don't have like what they say, what 'cabin fever'? I don't think so. I live in a beautiful house with beautiful nature and I have my dog. So maybe, maybe not in that way, Jeremy, not like isolation like that ...
Jeremy Wagstaff: 8:26
I suppose some people are feeling that, you know, obviously things are not normal now and there's a hope that things would return to normal quickly. But there's also an anxiety that that will be a very drawn out process. And maybe when it occurs, the normality will be different. To what is, what went before and that maybe people are kind of going through an almost a kind of mourning process because they realize that there's aspects to that life that irritated them. But also they took for granted that the best parts you took for granted and at least for now, those things a re not there, And, the uncertainty about what the world will be like when we do come back from the pandemic. It may be an absolute return to normal and all the fears their unjustified. But there is a sense of uncertainty about that. Maybe this is what's affecting people giving them this blue mood.
Dinny Jusuf: 9:22
Yeah, maybe, but I don't know whether I will be answering you. I was looking at, because we're supposed to start a program in March, to scale up the business of Toraja Melo and, of course, to increase the income of the weavers in our community and we're in the process of signing the MoU. But when I look at the proposal which we made last November and then revise in February and I'm looking at the MoU and I look at it, I said, Oh my God, this is irrelevant now. You know. I don't think things will be the same after Covid-19. And I was thinking, we are in a kind of war situation and after this is a post-war situation which you have to think about basic things like food, health, sanity you know, like your spirit, spiritual or your soul. Because many people are traumatized, and I just look at it and thought, Oh, my God, we have to rewrite this and while we are just basically, like days away from signing because then, now it has been postpone to June and I was struggling with it and I was, and I talked my indelible main team in Toraja Melo. And this is Yeah, I guess on Let me talk to the donor then. I was worried that he would respond differently, but when I called him, I said, "Pak, I think we should change this. This is irrelevant. I don't think we can continue like it's everything is normal because now, even our weavers are starting to get hungry, I talked to some yesterday. There is no food with this locked down in Indonesia, there is no cooking oil. No rice to the outer part of Indonesia, to the islands. Right? And I just talked to our weavers in Lembata, they said, "Ibu, our harvest failed because we have no rain, so we have not enough corn to eat. And then there is no rice delivery now from Java because there is no boat. And I said,"so what should I do? What should we do?" You know things like that, it's like basic, basic needs. I asked them, "do you still get fish from the sea? Yes, but rarely because they are not allowed to go in one boat, like many people in one boat right? So .. everything is like going back to basics. But when I talked to this executive director and he said, Yeah, let's change it because it doesn't fit anymore And then even he shared with me,"Ibu, he said, logically, the corona will only end when we find the vaccine. This is my theory, and the vaccine will not be ready in 18 to 24 months. So most likely, if things go back to 'normal', it will be 2022, and then, even then there will be a recession, depression. So we have to think like that. So yes, please change your proposal. So I don't know whether I'm answering your question. But you know, as much as we want to be positive for our personal life, in a way, things are more or less OK, but in different layers and different communities, not okay ..
Jeremy Wagstaff: 12:37
because a lot of your, the Weavers company, I guess we should explain, was to try to revive and preserve some of the traditional weaving industries in the more remote parts of Indonesia, right?
Dinny Jusuf: 12:49
Yeah, but the main purpose is basically to cut poverty and to give option to the rural poor women of Indonesia so that they have another option rather than being migrant workers. Because when they become migrant workers to Malaysia, Saudi Arabia and all that, many of them come back like pregnant, abused, even death. And we see that weaving is actually across Indonesia more than Batik. Batik is more in Java. So if they can make money from weaving, then they can stay home with their family with their children, instead of going away and breaking the family apart. You know, there so many broken families across the islands of the families of women who work abroad. But the secondary, yes, you're right. The secondary is to revive weaving art and culture of Indonesia.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 13:42
Right, And? For those who don't know Indonesia, it's 14,000 odd islands. And as you get further east in Indonesia, and away from Java, the islands get smaller and rely more heavily on those boats moving between them to deliver. As you say, rice and other supplies, right?
Dinny Jusuf: 14:00
Yeah, right.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 14:03
Yeah, that's quite moving. And I was just reading an article from Antara saying that even in districts not far from you, I guess in Sigi district, the datelines Palu that farmers are having to go out and till the land because they need to be, need to cultivate rice. And, obviously they realize, or most of them, aware of the risks, they're taking, in order to survive. A lot of Indonesians, they're going to have to abandon or suspend sort of the social distancing, the kind of things that might keep them healthy and safe. Right? It becomes a, once you start to get hungry, then you really have to throw caution to the winds for a lot of these people.
Dinny Jusuf: 14:44
Yeah. So, for example, our neighbors here around our house, they still go to the rice field. But it's not a crowded place, maybe like Java, but so they go with their families. So, usually Father, mother and two children. They go and do the rice field and in Toraja, also, we have this organization, the village Tourism organization which we established two years ago. Now, because there is no tourist obviously, so I just had a meeting with them, and they are starting, you know, planting vegetables and fruits and all that at home. So I think we will focus on that, which is, I think is good.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 15:24
At the moment. What is the situation then in Sulawesi? Is there a kind of lock down taking place or what is the status?
Dinny Jusuf: 15:32
Yeah, the Bupati has sort of, has closed the borders between Kabupaten Toraja Utara and Tana Toraja and the outer. Because we are in the mountains, right? And then from the mountains you go down to the bigger cities like Makasar, for example, from our Kabupaten Toraja Utara or North Toraja, your ID card will be checked whether we are from there are not. So, basically we are closed, and no buses are allowed. Private cars, you have to follow, you know, one in front, one in the back and masked. In general, people follow, but the markets are still open. The supermarket is are still open until noon. Except for the pharmacist. They have to open until nine PM It's quieter, but this is a quiet place. So I feel like safer here than in Jakarta, obviously.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 16:24
Have there been any cases locally? Do you know of a? Is there sort of growing feeling that it's closer? Does it still feel somewhat distant?
Dinny Jusuf: 16:32
It's really interesteding because we talked to the Bupati, we talked to the police head and all that. But so far, they said, we don't have any case of Corona here, but and then I asked, "have anybody been tested? No (they said). So, I said, "Okay". So, we don't have the rapid test, we don't have the full-blown test. Of course, there is no case. And then what I feel is wrong. But I don't know. Yeah, because the central government has this program about giving the basic needs, like the basics food like the rice, cooking oil, sugar and all that. And then they had this occasion in town, in Rantepao for for the officials to give them away. And then people just like like 100 or so people just crowded in. So there is no physical distancing. So that created a brouhaha. And then also I think what we need here, because we're not hungry in Toraja. It's different from Nusa Tenggara Timur and all these islands. We are not hungry, because we still have our own rice, and fish, and vegetables, as little as what we have. But giving this "sembako" ya, the basic needs, I think we need more seeds. Seeds for vegetables and fruits rather than giving away things like that which often go to the wrong people anyway.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 17:58
Sembako is the basic commodities. So how do you feel this is going to .. You're obviously going to kind of revise your project. But But as you say, it might not be something that you can implement for some time. Are there ways that you or others can help those people in more remote islands who are feeling cut off and already sort of feeling the damage?
Dinny Jusuf: 18:24
So we're doing a campaign called Weaving in the Time Of Corona, which we are going to do it more like a regularly and more actively starting this week and next week. Because I keep asking them what do you need? And they said, Please buy our weaving and then internally, locally, we will manage, we either buy barter or whatever, but please buy our weaving and send us cash and then we'll take care of ourselves because our community is already established. Cooperative, ya, Jeremy. So they're not, like scattered all over. So they have cooperatives, they have Koperasi Simpan Pinjam (Credit and Saving Cooperative), they have Koperasi Produksi (Production Cooperative). So basically, we buy the weaving from the Cooperative and then we pay the Cooperative, and then the Cooperative will manage the members in some area already starting with barter. So the cooperative have rice, cooking oil, sugar, and all that. So the weavers will give the weaving and then they will be paid with rice and what are the things that they need. So that's, and because I was asking, do we have to raise funds to send you food? Or things like that? They said, no, no, please focus on our weaving. Yah, they are quite adamant about that.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 19:39
So if people listening to this, and want to help, what? Where should they go? Where can they buy the weaving to help?
Dinny Jusuf: 19:45
Ah, yeah. Go to our instagram. Instagram Toraja Melo. And Facebook Page, Toraja Melo. Meaning a beautiful Toraja. But now we're not in Toraja, we are in East Indonesia.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 19:58
Okay and we'll put a link into the podcast.
Dinny Jusuf: 20:02
That would be great;
Jeremy Wagstaff: 20:04
So for you personally. How do you feel this is going to go forward? Your sort of feeling, these low moments. But obviously they're sort of things going on. Do you? Do you just feel it sort of rather bumpy. Or do you feel that you're in a kind of mental slide downhill here? How does it feel? Some day's good, some day's bad?
Dinny Jusuf: 20:22
Yeah, I think some day's good, Some day's bad. And luckily, I have friends. And now we have, like, zoom happy hour. So everybody drinks in their own houses but they show off. I have, like beautiful siblings, sisters and brother There are all in California. So I guess zooming regularly and also my with my family, my children and my siblings help. Maybe one sad thing is, I cannot even visit and see my mother in law who lives like half an hour away because we're worried that we may do her harm more than good. And she can talk on the phone, but she cannot obviously do zoom. hat kind of like sad for me. Yeah, I guess it's a bit bumpy and in a way, I want to admit or recognise and enjoy, like the up and down. You know. Maybe this is the only time because I've been busy and running around. But now, there is like, okay, I'm sad today, Okay, then what? I feel so lazy, after sadness come the laziness. And I said, I feel so lazy, I don't want I didn't feel like doing anything, but suddenly I'm quite involved, like doing like in three organization on top of Toraja Melo. So I have to do some work, but I feel lazy, and then what. Last week, I was lazy. I hardly get any job and also this week I have so so much to catch on, huh, Jeremy. But I want to, what do you call it? To treasure it? I want to let go with the flow that I am lazy. I've never been lazy, like almost all my life. But I want to admit I'm lazy I'm down and I don't want to do anything. I don't even want to read .. you know.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 21:59
That's Dinny. From her Tana Toraja home, it's hard to overestimate the difference the Internet makes at a time like this. If this was even 10 years ago, maybe five, then Indonesians who weren't in the big cities and main islands would have had trouble loading a Facebook page on their phone, let alone doing a video call. This is the first global pandemic in 100 years, But the changes that have made it bearable for the hundreds of millions of people under lockdown really have only being felt in the past few years. We'll be going back to Dinny and a few each time, of course, to see how she's getting on. If you have questions for her or for me, your comments, you can reach me at Pandemic@cleftstick.com.
Jeremy Wagstaff: 22:47
You've been listening to Life in a Pandemic produced by myself. Jeremy Wagstaff and Sari Sudarsono. If you're not already doing so, please subscribe, so you can catch future episodes and find old ones. And if you like it enough, make your feelings known on iTunes or whatever service you're listening to this on. If you'd like to comment or participate, please drop us a line at Pandemic@cleftstick.com. My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. Goodbye for now. And stay well wherever you are.