Jeremy Wagstaff writes: In this episode I speak to Joyce, a Taiwanese friend who was also for many years a journalist colleague at Reuters. Joyce is a straight shooter like any good journalist, but she has a soft spot for her homeland, and so it wasn't a surprise that she was proud of how her government had confronted COVID-19, despite of, or perhaps because of, it not being a member of the World Health Organisation. After a few months in Hong Kong Joyce was now back in Taipei, and wasn't as optimistic as those around her.
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Email us at pandemic@cleftstick.com. Life in a Pandemic is produced by Jeremy Wagstaff and Sari Sudarsono for CleftStick.com.
Jeremy Wagstaff writes: In this episode I speak to Joyce, a Taiwanese friend who was also for many years a journalist colleague at Reuters. Joyce is a straight shooter like any good journalist, but she has a soft spot for her homeland, and so it wasn't a surprise that she was proud of how her government had confronted COVID-19, despite of, or perhaps because of, it not being a member of the World Health Organisation. After a few months in Hong Kong Joyce was now back in Taipei, and wasn't as optimistic as those around her.
Subscribe and get updates as soon as a new podcast episode goes live in BuzzSprout. We are also on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcast, and Stitcher.
Email us at pandemic@cleftstick.com. Life in a Pandemic is produced by Jeremy Wagstaff and Sari Sudarsono for CleftStick.com.
Jeremy: 0:00
Hi. My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. You're listening to Living in a Pandemic.
Jeremy: 0:05
It's April the 1st 2020. There are 851,341 confirmed cases of COVID-19. 395 of them in Taiwan. Around the world, 41,889 people have died.
Joyce: 0:27
Hello.
Jeremy: 0:28
Hi, Joyce.
Joyce: 0:30
Hi.
Jeremy: 0:31
Can you hear me?
Jeremy: 0:34
This is Joyce, a Taiwanese friend of mine who was also for many years a journalist colleague at Reuters. Joyce is a straight shooter, like any good journalist, but she has a soft spot for her homeland and so it wasn't a surprise that she was proud of how her government had confronted COVID-19. Despite of, or perhaps because of, it not being a member of the World Health Organization. After a few months in Hong Kong, Joyce was now back in Taipei.
Jeremy: 1:01
Uh-huh. I can hear you.
Joyce: 1:03
You must know Taiwan has done a brilliant job. So it's actually a bit surreal, like reading all the news from overseas and knowing it was really quite horrible. But being physically in Taiwan, I didn't, I don't feel that kind of tense. You know what I mean? It's very odd because schools are still open. People still go on holiday in Taiwan. We've basically closed down the borders, only Taiwanese can come in. And although there are more and more cases every day, probably 20 a day, by now, there about 300 cases. And it's, I personally didn't feel the sense of really scared. You know, you go out to the streets, it's the same. The supermarket is the same. So the only thing, Phil was talking about that yesterday, we went out and then he said it's a bit surreal because the only thing, he said, if I want to feel this kind of like tense or scared, or whatever it's the the scene of people queuing up outside the pharmacies to buy masks because that's rationed, right? So every day, you can go and buy, at this time is three a week. So you can go and buy three. That, guarantee you will have three. And then those old people, they don't work. They go and queue up because they think that it's going to run out, but everyone can have three a week. And now it's, you buy it every other week and you get nine? So there's no shortage of that. Not every day you have one. But there's more than enough because when I go out, I don't wear mask apart from if I'm going to a shop or if I know I'm going to be in public transport. So there is no sense of panic in Taiwan, and I think that is so odd. Everyday are. Of course, people are worried. They talk about it. But you see people's behavior on the street, it's not too different from before. And I find that a bit scary because I don't know if, as if people here are a little bit too relaxed. The government is doing a fantastic job, but people are a bit relaxed, and it's as if nothing, there's nothing, we are on this lalaland. No one can attack us. That's how I feel. So, now I'm quite nervous about who knows. Maybe there will be community spreading all of a sudden because people still go out. You know, there's a long weekend holiday this weekend and all the BnBs and hotels are booked up. People going off on holiday in Taiwan, and then the government is not telling people not to go. The government still says keep distance and, you know, when you eat, don't sit next to someone. On the street, one meter away. And if you can avoid it, don't go. That's all the government is saying. The government said, we're not going to tell you, "Don't do this. We're going to fine you." No, there's nothing like that. So I think the government, I don't know, they must know what they are doing. They've done a good job until now, and I'm sure they know what they're doing. But it's a bit too relaxed to my liking.
Jeremy: 4:26
When you say they've done a great job. What what have they done?
Joyce: 4:29
I think it was early January when this just, before even, I think, was it? When they locked down Wuhan, I think the government announced to ban exports of the face masks, right? So, Taiwan is not going to export any, outside and then the government, like kind of took control of all the mask factories and then increased the production. So it's more like, the very early on they have established this confidence, people's confidence in the government because the masks is such a big thing for Taiwanese because people wear masks like so regularly all the time. So if you cannot have that, that's when people will not have confidence in you. The government very early on picked that up. So they assure people, "We don't have enough. But then we will have more and then we're not going to export any. We leave everything in Taiwan. So you will not panic buy because you can only buy three a week." So that kind of settle the sentiment, I think at the very early stage. So later on, there was, I think there was one day there was some rumor about like toilet paper. And then the government came out to say, "That's not true. We have so much material, the toilet paper, we have so much, you don't have to worry about it." And every time that happened, and then some Minister or whoever will come out and say, "That is not true." So I think it's that very early on they have established this, and plus Taiwan has a very, very good national health network system. I think that was rated number one in the world or something. It's very comprehensive. So once people are not scared, so they would, they really have confidence in the government. And by now, every day since January, every day, two o'clock in the afternoon, there's a press conference held by the health minister with whichever department is involved on the day. So there will be 4 or 5 of them at the press conference. It went one and a half hours. Reporters can ask whatever they want, you know, to their heart's content. So they would just ask questions. So to avoid any kind of fake information or wrong information going around. So now is that every day, two o'clock, everyone, including me, I would turn my phone on and watch the live press conference to see what's going on. So that kind of thing, I think it's a lot of elements combined, makes... that's why we only have like 300 cases. And the 300 cases, they're like 250, they are people who travel overseas and back. So only about 50 cases, they were local cases, domestic. So the local control is very, it's done very, very well. So once they found someone in the early stage, they found someone, and then they track down who was in contact with this person. Sometimes they track... I remember the first 10 or 20 cases, each case, they would track maybe about 500 people. And you are allowed to do it because it's not big yet. And then gradually, they closed down, they stopped anyone coming from China, stopped whatever. So the control is actually pretty good, I think. But then, you know, I'm Taiwanese, I'm biased. Another big factor is because, you know, because Taiwan is not in WHO, so you're on your own. What do you do? You can only do whatever you can, right? It's not like anyone's going to help you. So I think this kind of, like not in the WHO, after the SARS really keeps the government on their toes. They really think we need to be very, very careful about it. We need to be like, super, super sensitive. So they started everything so early on. So I think it was even, is it Italy was the first one to cut down all the flights, to cancel all flights to China. I think Taiwan did that, maybe even long, even before that. And that anyone from Wuhan had to go through the temperature check. I think that was in December already. Because Taiwan sends some officials to Wuhan to check out what's going on when they heard it and then they went. And then, when they came back and then, they straightaway they informed the WHO, and then WHO, of course, they don't, you know, don't give a damn. So no reply. And Taiwan decided, "Okay, we're going to do it ourselves." So, they start to check temperatures of all the flights, passengers from all the flights coming in from China. So they checked out the first one, I think it must be January. The first one, there was one from China, a Taiwanese businesswoman coming back from Wuhan and she was detected that she had that and everything started from that. We had the first case coming back from Wuhan, that was it and then banned the export and all that. So have I done a good propaganda for my country?
Jeremy: 9:36
Very good. Yeah, I'm wondering if this is your little sideline, but I know you would be critical if they felt it was required to be critical. You are, after all the journalists, right?
Joyce: 9:46
Yeah. So yeah. So, yeah, my, my, my criticism is, I think the government is still a little bit too relaxed, and then they try to please everyone. And because it's a very young democracy, you try to balance both, you know? Not like Singapore, but then we don't want to be like in the West, so liberal but then, we cannot control it so much. And of course, we cannot being like in China. So they try to do everything to please the people. So that's why I I can see the policy is really very, very gentle. Like only last week, the government announced. We recommend, it's not too bad. We recommend indoors gathering less than 100 people, outdoors, 500 people. And it's not a law, it's just a "we recommend this." There's no penalty whatsoever. That's the recommendation and when they say this and then they would say, "OK, maybe gradually, we're going to make this a bit more like strict. But please get used to this first." And then people ask about like, you know, "Are we going to have a lock down?" No, it's still far away. But gradually we were doing, we will impose a few restrictions. Just get used to it first. So I think in a way, it's a pretty, it's a good approach. You get ready for what's coming, but it's still, I think it's a bit relaxed.
Jeremy: 11:11
Do people have observed the recommendations? Are they quite good about following those recommendations?
Joyce: 11:17
As far, because we don't go out that much. So, as far as I can see, not really. I really think people think this is just like heaven. We are virus-free, no worries. Really. If you go out of here on the street, people do not feel the sense of this virus.
Jeremy: 11:36
Because Taiwan is held up a sort of model for all this, not just in the way you describe it, but also, their surveillance that they kind of were using mobile phone data surveil. And that Taiwanese will always wear masks, and it's because it is already a sort of social norm anyway.
Joyce: 11:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm a bit a little bit too critical of my own people. But yes, the big data, they've done that. It's really, really quite incredible. They, you know, the Digital Minister, this transgender minister Audrey Tang, she's just like a genius. And then, very quickly, she would pick up something and she would go on to do this app and whatever. The mask, when the governments are working to control this and then they start to calculate, "Okay, how much we can produce a day, how much everyone can have.?" And then they have this map to say, what do you call it? On a real time, you can just, on the map, you just point some way and then you can see which pharmacy has how many masks left. And if it's gone, you go to the next pharmacy near you. And so, you can see how many, or a way you can get your mask. You could go and buy it. And then we use the national health card is like an ID card. You could use that card so you can only have three a week. So it sounds very, very well. And at first they said, OK, we will send it to 7Elevens. There were I think, four major convenience stores: 7Eleven , FamilyMarts, or KMart or whatever. So they're everywhere in Taiwan. So what the government say is that, "Okay, we will send the masks to the 7Eleven, you go and buy." But these 7Eleven, you know, they have so many things to do. So the government quickly realize, I think only for 2, 3 days they quickly realize, "No, this is not working very well." They switch it to government contract pharmacies, and they're a lot as well. In my neighborhood, there are probably three or four I can walk to. So they switched to that. And I think that this level of being helpful because your country know and recognized, I think that plays a big part as well. Because all the pharmacies, they do this, they start to sell that masks for free, their own time. So the government just asked them. "Okay, we are going to do this." So they can up to not do it because they're not obliged to do it. The government is not paying them, but they are contracted pharmacies, right? So they do it. So all the pharmacies they say, "Okay, what do I (do)?" And the same thing with the masks, all the mask factories, the government say, "We're going to do this." And they all decided, "OK, we will do it." The production is from, the daily production I think is from two million to now 1.3 million, no, 13 million. So we have 23 people. 23 million. So it's that you have half of the population can have one every day. And I think in a few days the production will be like 20 million a day. Right? So now today, the President Tsai Ing-wen just announced, "Now, it's very stable, the mask thing, we're going to export now." So Taiwan is doing this. This I'm going to press my government doing it in a very, very good way that now they start, they want to export. So it's high-quality masks. So Taiwan is now, I think, the second biggest mask producer in the world or something. And it's only in a month time. They're putting, I don't know how many production lines. And all the factories, you know, the engineers and whatever, there was a nice video that how they, they do not care they are competitors because it's for the country's sake. So that thing, I think, is very, very unique in other countries because you feel the pride of it in the pharmacies as well, and then they kind of do this kind of thing. So the government say, "Okay, go and queue up at the pharmacies and it's according to the number of your card that even numbers you go on these days, odd numbers you go on these days." So that has been going on for about a month and then they quickly realize, "OK, that's a waste of time." So now this Audrey Tang, the digital minister, very quickly developed this app. So you just go out to the the government app. But according to my brother, you go into the app and it took him like 30 seconds to go up. That was his his card and that the government will send you saying that "OK, it's been successful." And then you just wait. And then they will send you an SMS to tell you it's ready, go and pick it up from the 7Eleven. So you pick up, as of now, you pick up three masks from 7Eleven. And then you pay a bit of shipping. That's 70 U. S. Cents for three masks send to your 7Eleven next door. So that's incredible. I really think that's so incredible. So you just go. And then the digital minister, she went to the 7Eleven to show people that please do this. Don't waste your time queuing up. So she went to the machine, keying her number, took the slip, went to the counter, pay and it took him like 36 seconds to do it. So now, it became like a challenge. People started, "Okay, I have to do it in 40 seconds or whatever." So for that kind of thing, it's almost like, I find that very, it's very clever and it's kind of, it makes people want to participate because everyone, the young people, they're really into this. So they want to participate in this kind of, "Okay, I want to participate in this trial session." Only one day, they want to see how, how successful, or how they can improve. Everyone went out to try, to show like, you know, I'm part of this process. So that kind of thing, I think the government has, the Digital Minister is doing a very, very good job.
Jeremy: 17:42
Interesting, very interesting. So this is partly a kind of youthful government that's it's very democratically minded, very conscious, that it's won the election sort of against the odds in a way, right, so that's one part of it. And then you got the other part, which is Taiwan has always on a sort of semi crisis footing because of its relationship across the Taiwan strait?
Joyce: 18:04
Yeah, because you always worried, you're always scared. So okay, it happened. What do we do, we're very quickly? We do something to stop it. So I think that's the mentality.
Jeremy: 18:17
Interesting. So what do you think's gonna happen in the next few weeks before I call you again to see how you are in a week's time or so. What do you think is gonna happen then? Are people gonna have woken up to the fact that this is kind of there maybe being a bit too laid back about this, or do you think it's gonna look pretty much the same?
Joyce: 18:34
I think the government will impose a more strict regulations over the next few weeks because it's from my, the number of gatherings to the social distance. So I would, I would imagine schools will close. And then there will be more restrictions. Maybe I don't, I don't think it will come to a lockdown. There's no way Taiwan would do a lockdown. Although reporters, all asked that question every day. When are we going to do a lockdown?
Jeremy: 19:03
And you yourself, I mean, it hasn't touched you or your family yet, the crisis hasn't?
Joyce: 19:08
No, not at all.
Jeremy: 19:09
Right? It still feels quite distant, in that sense?
Joyce: 19:12
No, I don't. Maybe I exaggerated that. I think people are relaxed because I'm naturally a nervous person. So I feel they are too relaxed. But say, my brother, my sister, they cut down going out with friends and then, you know, these kind of things already happening. Of course, people still go out, but there's a lot of people they already cut down socialising and then my brother, he doesn't cook. But then now I think most of the time he will bring food back, but not to eat outside. That kind of thing that is quite apparent. And, like my sister, if something happened, she would, you know, not go to the shop, go to that shop, that kind of thing. That kind of impact, I think it's on everyone.
Jeremy: 20:04
But you don't get the sense that there's a kind of mental issues seeping in. And I spoke to one of two people kind of sense that not necessarily in their family or nearby, but they're kind of these inevitably gonna have or is having a mental impact, the sort of social isolation and distancing that you're seeing in the countries where things have gone further.
Joyce: 20:27
Tearing each other or getting divorced. Haha ..
Jeremy: 20:29
Yes, yes, yes.
Joyce: 20:32
Not that I know. But from what I read, I don't think so. But in Taiwan, like I said, I think it's a... This situation may make things here a bit strange. Like you read a lot here. It's the self confidence about how well, what a good job we have done. Look at China. Ha ha ha. This kind of thing. Or look, people will notice us. So this kind of like a national pride, it's pretty high. So in a way, this kind of pride, I think, inspire people to follow the government's instructions because you think that they are doing a good job, and that you think, "if I follow that, we will do even better, and then people will notice us." So, there is a bit of this, like how Taiwan is doing well. Of course the government is doing a good job. I think that people also play quite an important job, a role because they hear they really follow the government's instructions. So I haven't seen the social distance thing because it only starts today. So I will know in a few weeks to see if people do follow that.
Jeremy: 21:47
That's Joyce, a Taiwanese, worried that her country might be going soft on COVID-19. The interview was recorded on April 1st. We'll give Joyce another call in a week or two's time.
Jeremy: 21:58
If you have questions for any of the people I've spoken to or for me or comment, you can reach me at Pandemic@cleftstick.com.
Jeremy: 22:07
You've been listening to Life in a Pandemic produced by myself, Jeremy Wagstaff and Sari Sudarsono. If you're not already doing so, please subscribe so you can catch future episodes and find old ones. And if you like it enough, make your feelings known on iTunes or whatever service you're listening to this on. If you'd like to comment or participate, please drop us a line at pandemic@cleftstick.com. My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. Goodbye for now, and stay well wherever you are.