Tears in Kunming

The second interview in our series, where Jeremy catches up with a former student from China, who is studying in the U.S. but found herself separated from her husband on a family visit back to Kunming.

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Email us at pandemic@cleftstick.com. Life in a Pandemic is produced by Jeremy Wagstaff and Sari Sudarsono for CleftStick.com. 

Transcript

Jeremy:   0:00
Hi. My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. You're listening to Living in a Pandemic. It's March the 29th 2020. This is the second podcast of the series. As of today, there are 657,000 COVID-19 cases in the world, 83,342 of them in China. 30,451 people have died. In this interview, we meet Helen, a Chinese PhD student who lives in the U. S. I knew Helen when she was one of my journalism students in Singapore, which is why she calls me Mr. Wagstaff. We kept in touch in the decades since and I knew she'd married and settled in the States. But when I caught up with her to chat about her experiences with COVID-19, I found out she was back at her parents home in Kunming, in southwest China.

Helen:   0:57
Hello.  

Jeremy:   0:59
Hey. Hello!

Helen:   1:00
Hi, Mr. Wagstaff. How are you?

Jeremy:   1:02
Hi. I'm good. Thanks. How are you?

Helen:   1:04
Good. Good. It's so nice to hear from you.

Jeremy:   1:08
Very nice to have a chance to chat with you as well. I was hoping you weren't gonna call me Mr Wagstaff, but if you feel more comfortable calling me Mr. Wagstaff, that's okay.

Helen:   1:16
Yeah, I've thought you wouldn't mind it. But I guess I just want to show my respect. Like I feel, you're really nice teacher, professor for me, so I really want to use those. Yeah, Sorry.

Jeremy:   1:28
Okay. Well, I won't stop you. I guess we should probably explain that you were in, you were in my class once, right?  

Helen:   1:34
Yes.  

Jeremy:   1:34
You've gone on to very good things. So you're basically kind of living in the U S. for the main part now, are you? 

Helen:   1:40
Right, like, for the past... 8 years. Yeah. We're living in North Carolina.

Jeremy:   1:49
And when did you get married?

Helen:   1:51
2017

Jeremy:   1:53
And you now have a son?

Helen:   1:55
Yes. Um, Navin. He was born this past summer. And he was just about, like, 8 months. He's growing bigger and bigger and heavier and naughtier.

Jeremy:   2:04
Excellent. So what happened? You took him back to show to your parents in China on your own, was it?

Helen:   2:14
No, actually, in January, my husband and I and my mom, we came back to China together. Um, and then my husband went back to India to Mumbai to visit his family before he went back to the U. S. And then just me and Navin are here. We've been stuck here, for like about three months since January.

Jeremy:   2:35
So you really only meant to be there for a few weeks. But the Corona virus changed all that. Was that?

Helen:   2:41
Yeah. Who'd have expected? Because I was here, mainly to ah, for my interview for the immigrant visa for the U. S. There's another story but like, I have to interview through consulate processing. So I went back. I came back and went to Guangzhou consulate for the interview. So I was hoping like all after this officer was like, "oh, it should be good. I asked but after two weeks you, you would expect in the mail if everything goes fine." But then, you know, after the Lunar New Year, like everything was just stopped. So until now, we didn't have anything. I don't even have a visa to go back now, but, fortunately, I can like still work from home for my PhD and I plan to, like, defend remotely for the dissertation.

Jeremy:   3:30
Right? OK, so you've already submitted the dissertation, and then you have the defense. The sort of viva processes, is that right?

Helen:   3:36
Yeah. Yeah, I haven't submitted it but the scheduled defense is May the 7th. So initially, it was funny, like, earlier that situation in China was really bad. So I emailed my advisor and the graduate school, and they were super supportive. And they were like, "Yes, this is really extenuating situation, and we're going to, like, be as flexible as we can." So my adviser was like, "Oh, you're the first person who were granted to remote defense, like from our university." But then who knows like in the U. S. the situation got worse. And now everything in the US, they have to do remote defense, too. It doesn't make a difference now.

Jeremy:   4:14
You would have been a pioneer  if you're being the only one to do it now, everybody's doing it.

Helen:   4:18
Yeah.

Jeremy:   4:19
Right. Wow. That's quite an upheaval. I mean, it must be very difficult for you, because you, you know, this is the important part of the PhD process, right? The final submission, and then preparing for the defense?

Helen:   4:30
Yeah, I think it's important. But like when you are in China, especially earlier in January, when you read so many stories about people in Wuhan passing away about like the fear, I feel the PhD is just like the minimal part of this whole worries, worries. It's not the priority at all. Yeah, it's a distraction for me to focus on. So I don't want to be worried as much.

Jeremy:   4:56
Right? Yeah, sort of. Everything is put in context.

Helen:   4:59
Yeah.  

Jeremy:   5:00
So where are you living in China? My geography is terrible. Is it? Is it an area that has been badly affected? Or have you managed to avoid the worst?

Helen:   5:09
Yeah, we're actually kind of fortunate, we are in Yunnan in Kunming. The southwest part of China. Like which border with Burma, Vietnam, and Laos. Um, yeah, we don't really have many cases. The recent cases were just like from abroad, like not not as many as like Shanghai with all those big cities. We're kind of second-tier city.

Jeremy:   5:34
Right? Presumably there has been quite a lot of... the normal life has changed there as well, right? I mean that they've had to impose restrictions and limit movement and stuff?

Helen:   5:46
For sure. Like earlier, we have this 14 day quarantine if you go to a city, which was really serious because my other family members, they're living in even smaller town, and they were celebrating the Lunar New Year with us. And after this thing, after this outbreak, the cars without the local license in that city, they were not allowed to enter the city. So my grandma, like they kind of lived with us for a while before the policy loosened. But now everything went back to normal. Almost, so it's good now, like here, I feel...

Jeremy:   6:25
Right? So things are pretty much come back to normal. People are going about their normal business. There aren't any real restrictions in place anymore?

Helen:   6:32
No, except for like wearing masks. But I could be wrong, as I feel like I have been so stuck at home and I don't really go to work. So I don't even know the real policy. I was aware that when this outbreak was severe, my dad, they have this WeChat groups of workmates, and they had to report to each other like every day. Who is where? And is safe and not infected? Yeah, but since I feel like I'm, like, a helicopter person here, just winding  here for like several months. So I really don't know much.

Jeremy:   7:08
Right. So you didn't really experience any shortages or, you know, things were running out or sort of people were, it was, it didn't really hit your province. Your town as much as elsewhere?

Helen:   7:22
No, not at all honestly. And, uh, we were, like, suggested we're recommending, like only one household goes out, goes out to shop. And every time we have to scan those QR code about our whereabouts. There's some subtle, like small things, like in the community, like for example,  when you order, for example, those water, like drinking water? Those, uh, workers will carry the water. They will come to your home and place you the water. But now, of course, the committee ban, uh, are not allowing that. So I used to have to go to carry those big jugs of water. Like those kind of small inconvenience. But honestly, there is nothing we feel really difficult, not, because what my friends are talking about in the U S. like now, even toilet paper is hard to buy, and they have, and certain kind of milk they have to ration. So, yeah.  Probably not as difficult as in the US now.

Jeremy:   8:23
Right. I guess you have a kind of interesting perspective on this, because a, you know, those of us who living in Asia have bean very conscious of all this since January as you say, late January, early February, when it started to become apparent that the problem in Wuhan was significant. And so I think, most of Asia stood up and took notice. Whereas in Europe and North America, I think it is only very recently in the last three or four weeks that people have really focused on this. I suppose, initially it looked like you got a very bad choice by ending up in China. Whereas now,  your friends in the U. S. are probably wondering whether they're in the wrong place. It seems like it's almost kind of stretched across the globe and affected people, but on a, on a delay and people talking about something in Europe now is something that we were talking about a couple of months ago.

Helen:   9:19
Exactly. It's almost like situations flipped. Like when we were initially here, there was a shortage of facial masks. Um, and somebody told me, my husband, who have also some colleagues, his some colleagues, are also from China. And he mentioned to me some of his colleagues went to the post office to mail some facial masks from the US to China. But now, I was asking somebody, "should I mail you some facial masks?" because there is a shortage there. Yes, it's just so ironic, I feel. Yeah. And, uh, it's kind of hard, when the, when kind of our families leave apart, like my husband's there and I just constantly worried about him, because now he also has to stay at home. Like initially, I feel like,  he's just like you can go out to work and he can just go back to his bachelor life without me and Navin. But now he's stuck at home. Even yesterday he mentioned to me he went out for a run and when he saw the neighbor, he didn't really go like, physically very close to them. But he felt, he felt good because it was the first time in, like about a week, like he could, like, say hello to a person in face, like in person, and that I feel that's the most difficult part.

Jeremy:   10:47
Yeah, it does. It does have an impact on emotional impact, right? We don't realize even those of us who are loners who actually sort of enjoy our own company that even then, we still need other people around us even if we ignore them or keep them out a little bit of a distance, it suddenly starts to feel very lonely when you're when you're this isolated or secluded.

Helen:   11:11
Yeah, I feel so, yeah.

Jeremy:   11:14
Do you think this, um, any conclusions that can be drawn yet about how certain kind of cultures. You're obviously straddling three or four really interesting cultures? Do you think there's a cultural aspect to this? Are some cultures more resilient to these kind of upheavals and social changes that are imposed very rapidly? Or do you think kind of everybody essentially reacts in the same way even if superficially they appear different?

Helen:   11:45
Such a nice question. I honestly, I don't know. But I just feel when China imposed this policy, um, I just want to say that Chinese people are just really nice kind people. Like we just follow the rules strictly. When the rules are like, oh, nobody goes out, nobody goes out. My parents, all of the community and now our neighbors, like we are so good family kind of family with our neighbors that we eat at each other's places. But during that severe, like time, we just don't go like we just wave say hello, far away to each other like I've had to really helped. And I don't know whether this is true, but from what I read about the case in Italy's like some when the, um, kind of this lockdown policy was issued, there are still people not like taking it seriously. I guess that, um, probably made the virus more, um, powerful, I guess.

Jeremy:   12:49
Right? The Chinese people would, and your community, your parents, neighbors, et cetera, they would strictly follow this if if the local officials said you must do this there would be no questioning of that or no disobedience. It would be, it would be followed.

Helen:   13:06
No. And, uh, we heard, just like I feel we're very I don't know whether, how to frame it, whether we're good at it or whether we are really willing to do this. But we just get this. We are willing to sacrifice our personal freedom to trade for the safety, for like extended period of time. And also, I feel there are a lot of sacrifices that people in Wuhan made because of this lock down. And so many, like some of my friends who whose parents like one friend's mom, um, they are the nurses. She's a nurse and one friend's dad is a doctor. And they all went to Wuhan to help. Like these are not from Wuhan, they are like from different provinces. And they just one after another, like those, um, those doctors and nurses. They just went to Wuhan to help. And I think that, that is just admirable and they are really adorable. During that period, I was just reading the news, and I couldn't stop crying. Like reading those sad news. I feel like the rest of the promises. Like where we live, we are fortunate because the virus was contained in Wuhan where the medical resources, which is stretched to sourcing.

Jeremy:   14:20
Right. Yeah, that's interesting. That that seems to be the case, right? That that a lot of Chinese people feel that the people of Wuhan made made a huge sacrifice on that. It's clear from the data, at least so far. It's not the end of the story, I suppose. But so far it does appear to have done the job. But the cost of it was great for for one city, right? One province?  

Helen:   14:44
Yeah.

Jeremy:   14:44
How does it work In terms of, I mean, you talked about your community, your your parents community within the building within the neighborhood and everybody kind of eating together and stuff. And when that is removed, how do people then check up on one another? You know, this is of elderly lady down the hall. Is she okay? We haven't heard from her for a bit. How did how did people kind of keep those community bonds going when all the doors are shut?

Helen:   15:13
I feel first, like probably in our community, the sense of community is not that strong. Like we don't know much about other neighbors except for, like, the neighbor close to us. Uh, it's very easy to maintain. We see them every day. We hear their sound, they hear Navin cry every day. So, yes, so. So we kind of after this, we just like, um, go back to the normal. And in smaller community... Yeah. Sorry, I couldn't really answer that question as I don't know much. And during this period of time, my grandpa passed away from the... he lived in a small village in that small town. And initially all, I mean, me, Mom, Dad and Navin would book to the tickets before us, for us to go back. But then during that period, there was still this 14 day quarantine. Probably, it's still there now, but anyway, that time, I thought, like what if, like, on the way back, uh, took on me like Navin showed any symptom of cough or whatever and they want to quarantine us in a designated hotel, or place. It will be hard with Navin being like eight months old and he has severe eczema. He needs to eat like special, like a certain kind of formula. And then, I was just afraid like, what happened if we have to be quarantined. So ended up just Dad and Mom went back to the small town and my auntie came to my house to help us. Yes. So that was kind of difficult part.

Jeremy:   16:51
Right. But your your mom and dad were able to get there before everyone's confined to their homes?

Helen:   16:58
Yeah, they. I don't know like then. Yeah, they were able to still visit, but they have a kind of quarantined for a while.

Jeremy:   17:06
Okay, well, I'm sorry. Sorry for you about your grandfather. That must have been difficult.

Helen:   17:12
Thank you, and he lived a long life. But I told my friends. Yeah. And he didn't suffer much? Yeah, I think.

Jeremy:   17:19
So, what's your plan now? You're just hoping that eventually you'll be able to get back and that your papers will be sorted out or you're going to just stay put and defend your thesis from there and just stay in China for a while?  

Helen:   17:34
Yeah, I couldn't, I don't have a choice but to stay here without visas. The best I can just I try to defend here, and, uh, yeah, thankfully, like my advisors, my teamwork, like workmates, they are super nice and with the technology doesn't feel that far away. I can still be connected.  

Jeremy:   17:57
That was Helen in Kunming. We'll get back to her in a few days and see how she's coping.  

Jeremy:   18:04
You've been listening to life in a pandemic produced by myself, Jeremy Wagstaff and Sari Sudarsono. If you're not already doing so, please subscribe so you can catch future episodes and find old ones. And if you like it enough, make your feelings known on iTunes or whatever service you're listening to this on. If you'd like to comment or participate, please drop us a line at Pandemic@cleftstick.com. My name is Jeremy Wagstaff. Goodbye for now and stay well, wherever you are.